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Old 11-02-2008, 09:34 PM   #31
Derek Weaver
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by Frank E Morel View Post
So is there a ratio between dl and BS??

My dl is 305( which is in the photo) and bs 285 both 1 rm. stand about 5 six wt 158lb

I fully understand that dl is going to be a bigger lift than BS but what is a plus/minus ratio?
Frank,
There's not a real set ratio, but the DL is nearly always going to be greater than the squat assuming your lifting without any powerlifting gear like a squat suit.

Pro PL'ers will squat 1000 and pull 700 (gross generalization), but that's a whole different story.

Typically, if one's squat is equal to or greater than their deadlift they either a) don't train the deadlift, b) have a poor starting position for the deadlift, c) are squatting high. All these points were mentioned by the man himself at the ************ forum by the way.
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Old 11-03-2008, 10:08 PM   #32
Frank E Morel
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
Frank,
There's not a real set ratio, but the DL is nearly always going to be greater than the squat assuming your lifting without any powerlifting gear like a squat suit.

Pro PL'ers will squat 1000 and pull 700 (gross generalization), but that's a whole different story.

Typically, if one's squat is equal to or greater than their deadlift they either a) don't train the deadlift, b) have a poor starting position for the deadlift, c) are squatting high. All these points were mentioned by the man himself at the ************ forum by the way.
Thanks derek! that is the information I was looking for.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:16 AM   #33
David Gray
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

Why does everyone keep saying long arms are a plus? They usually come with long legs, which are a minus. I'm 6'2", 34" inseam. My arms may be longer, but that bar has to come another 3-4" off the floor thanks to my legs. That means my lower back has to raise my upper back a greater distance from start position to finish, meaning more work for my lower back.

Sorry, short guys are at an absolute advantage throughout most every aspect of weightlifting.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:22 AM   #34
Christopher Day
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by David Gray View Post
Why does everyone keep saying long arms are a plus? They usually come with long legs, which are a minus. I'm 6'2", 34" inseam. My arms may be longer, but that bar has to come another 3-4" off the floor thanks to my legs. That means my lower back has to raise my upper back a greater distance from start position to finish, meaning more work for my lower back.

Sorry, short guys are at an absolute advantage throughout most every aspect of weightlifting.
I think if I tall guy has decent to good flexibility, putting his natural starting position low to the ground, then the disadvantage of having long legs will not outweigh the advantage of having long arms.
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:14 PM   #35
David Gray
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by Christopher Day View Post
I think if I tall guy has decent to good flexibility, putting his natural starting position low to the ground, then the disadvantage of having long legs will not outweigh the advantage of having long arms.
Christopher, take a look at my orangutang geometry (WFS):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDWqh6LmfE
255 lb workset deadlifts

Look how, to get the bar over the center of my foot, I have to lean so far forward. Maybe my long arms are preferable to the guy who was knocking himself in the nads doing DLs (t-rex arms), but I still think the short-to-medium height has the advantage.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:58 PM   #36
Christopher Day
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by David Gray View Post
Christopher, take a look at my orangutang geometry (WFS):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDWqh6LmfE
255 lb workset deadlifts

Look how, to get the bar over the center of my foot, I have to lean so far forward. Maybe my long arms are preferable to the guy who was knocking himself in the nads doing DLs (t-rex arms), but I still think the short-to-medium height has the advantage.
David, it is good that you posted this video link because there are some problems with your deadlift technique that are limiting you substantially.

How flexible are you in your hamstrings? Are you capable of sitting in a full squat position and resting there for 30+ seconds?

The reason I ask is this: You starting position in the deadlift should have your butt at about knee height from the floor. Your butt looks to be about 40 centimeters above your knees. This disadvantages you in two ways:

1: Look at the angle of your back - it is nearly parallel to the floor. The back of a tall guy like yourself should make about a 35 - 45 degree angle with the floor, possibly steeper if you could squat down really low. This means that you are lifting that weight a full 90 degrees with your back rather than 45 degrees... about twice as far as necessary. (That is, twice as far in a circular way: you are lifting the bar out and then in to your body, rather than straight up in a vetical line.)

2: With your butt so high up in the air, your legs and glutes are not involved in lifting this heavy weight at all. The whole load is being carried by your back, twice as far as it needs to travel. The prime mover in the deadlift should be the glutes, and then the hamstrings, with the lower back coming in mostly at the end to straighten up. You are eliminating the two most important muscle groups with your starting position.
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:16 AM   #37
David Gray
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

I can squat that way easily (I'm working to break myself from ATG squats). I'll see if I can get my a** down more in the setup, that used to come when I leaned back a little to get the bar under the scapulae. Thanks for your observations.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:49 PM   #38
David Gray
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

Holy cow, Chris, I looked at the vid again and you're dead-on about my back position. At the same time, look at the bar over my foot, up against my shins, directly below my scapulae. I'm going to have fun with this, if only I had orangutang strength to go with the geometry!
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:20 PM   #39
Ian McArdle
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

I disagree, I think that technique is about right. If your *** is at knee level it's a squat not a deadlift. You'd be relying on your quads more. The angle of the hips would still be at least the same so overall you're moving more weight through more joint movement. Hamstrings are highly involved in Dave's technique and tends to be the stronger technique - look at most powerlifters.

It's proportionate length of arms that matters rather than absolute length. I'm 6'4" but my arms are halfway down my thighs so my deadlift is decent compared to my squat and press.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:34 PM   #40
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Squats vs. Deads

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Limb lengths that allow a more upright torso in the proper pull position allow for easier aka heavier deadlifts. These limb proportions do not always make squatting easier though... I think that is what he was trying to get at?
Robert,
Excellent point. I have long arms, long stocky torso, short legs. Very good deadlifter and squatter. Absolutely crappy bench presser. Getting better at overheads though.

I have an 8 year old daughter who possesses the same build, but with sturdier wrists and hands (I have large wrists), but her wrists, in proporition to her body are freakin huge. She will be a strong one if I can motivate her.


All the best,
Arden
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