CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > In Sickness and In Health > Injuries
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Injuries Chronic & Acute

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-28-2014, 05:52 PM   #111
Russell Greene
CrossFit Staff Russell Greene is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz  CA
Posts: 264
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Dustin,

Gatorade's involvement in science would not be a problem if the ACSM's research was untainted by its sponsor's influence. In contrast, the CrossFit Games have had sponsors, but none had any impact on CrossFit's programming and recommendations. The issue is not sponsorship, but corrupt science.

The Gatorade/ACSM relationship failed doubly. First, the ACSM recommended a level of hydration with no measured performance benefit and a well-documented risk of hyponatremia. Second, Gatorade misrepresented the ACSM's guidelines and exaggerated the need for hydration even beyond the ACSM's already excessive guidelines. The ACSM never corrected Gatorade's dangerous distortion of their 1996 guidelines. Source (w/f safe): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658915/

The impact was not "statistically insignificant," as you claim. The New England Journal of Medicine found a 13% rate of hyponatremia among finishers of the Boston Marathon. Source (w/f safe): http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa043901. With around 500,000 Americans finishing marathons each year, that would extrapolate out to at least tens of thousands of cases of hyponatremia yearly. The .6% of Boston Marathon finishers tested who suffered from "critical hyponatremia" would represent 3000 cases of near death amongst 500,000 marathon finishers, yearly.

We are not asking you to take our word for it. We're asking you to read Waterlogged (for free if you ask Lynne Pitts), read Gatorade and the ACSM's research and guidelines, and come to your own conclusions. Once you've read the primary sources, you will be able to intelligently critique the arguments presented so far. Hopefully.

It's clear, however, that you're not yet ready to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin Wintczak View Post
What exactly just happend over the past 11 pages?

"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

I think that sums up this entire discussion.

But really, are we moralizing about the marketing of sugar water because a statistically insignificant amount people don't understand the idea of moderation? Really? This is a battle you'd like to fight?

The cognitive dissonance on display in the arguments for driving "big soda" out of the fitness industry is, frankly...well not surprising.

So "big soda" = bad, then alcohol would have no place in fitness right? Even if it was marketed in a way that would appeal to a younger fitter demographic. CF would never take money and allow a compan...

Oh right...

http://games2011.crossfit.com/conten...d-vendors.html

But that was just vendor, just there to sell product to all the fans. They wouldn't, oh I don't know allow a corporate sponsor who markets fat, salt and sugar laden food to spon....

http://games2009.crossfit.com/sponsors/

Ohhhh! Man...really? Ok, ok...well we know after reading all these studies from as far back as 1996 according to one of the Russell's, that Gatorade is bad right? So we've known about this and would NEVER allow them to spons...

http://games2008.crossfit.com/

godamnitsomuch

So I'm a bit confused now, is this just moral relativism or did HQ give back the money paid to them by Gatorade, Panda Express and Michelob Ultra?

I'm sure you're aware all links are wfs

"Smokey, you're cool.....I'm outta here."

Last edited by Russell Greene : 02-28-2014 at 06:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 07:27 PM   #112
William J Mallon
Member William J Mallon is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northport  NY
Posts: 52
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Russell,

I study Clinical Psychology where Cynthia Lucero received her doctorate shortly before her death in 2002. I would love a copy of Waterlogged to share w/ professors of mine who knew her very well. on the list - Lynne

Also, prior to starting my doctorate in Psychology, I worked in Clinical Research and a majority of my work pertained to research ethics/IRB's so this is subject that is vey interesting to me.

With that being said, I take respectfully take issue with your last post.

If Gatorade was a sponsor in recent years, then it is completely reasonable for someone to point out such a discrepancy. If your CrossFit HQ has such a strong stance against Gatorade, the fact that they have allowed them to sponsor the CrossFit games is a contradiction, regardless of how great/little an impact the latter has on the games of HQ.

Pointing this out (As Dustin did) does not make someone unwilling to look at the source data. I do not mean to come across as inflammatory, but I do not understand the logic behind this claim.

Also, I am not doubting the veracity of the claims you are and your colleagues are making. Before making judgment, I would like to read the source myself..

All the best,

William

[quote=Russell Greene;1221679]Dustin,

Gatorade's involvement in science would not be a problem if the ACSM's research was untainted by its sponsor's influence. In contrast, the CrossFit Games have had sponsors, but none had any impact on CrossFit's programming and recommendations. The issue is not sponsorship, but corrupt science.
__________________
The Peoples GALLON
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 10:33 PM   #113
Dale F. Saran
CrossFit Staff Dale F. Saran is offline
 
Dale F. Saran's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Westerly  RI
Posts: 559
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

William: not unless there's a time machine are we hypocrites. Gatorade was a sponsor before we knew anything about any of this, when the Games was 75 of us in Dave's parents back yard, the first time, and perhaps 300 the next year.

Up until recently, we were unaware of Dr. Noakes, the issue of hyponatremia, and GSSI/ACSM faking science to sell product to the marathoning public (and the larger sporting community), at all. Surprise to us. I suppose if we'd been diligently looking in the annals of the British Journal of Sports Medicine, we would have stumbled upon it. Unfortunately, however, we were growing this thing (and a little busy) and generally one isn't required to assume that organizations publishing "peer reviewed" literature are actually exaggerating possible injuries (heatstroke) to create favorable "science" for one of the Platinum sponsors. If, in fact, we were to be held to that standard ("Why didn't you know this, CrossFit???) the same could well be asked of anyone here. Why didn't anyone else notice - it all took place right there in public!! WE ALL MISSED IT.

BUT, we're willing to say, "Holy Crap?!" Because now that we know - and have a venue to talk about it, we think it's morally incumbent upon us to tell everyone. "Look!! Look what they did!!" You have an organization that's supposed to be responsible for doing research that helps and (one would presume) protects athletes: they did neither and if that was all they'd done, they'd just be bad at their jobs. No, they did worse. They took money to intentionally distort science and make invalid claims using their authority in order to convince an entire community to drink more sugary beverage, in excess of a prescription that was fatal. They did a lot worse than simply be bad at their jobs.

I'm not sure how we're the hypocrites in any of this. If Gatorade was a sponsor, they won't be now (I'm guessing) and that's perfectly fine. People can drink that stuff if they want or not, that's fine, too.

The real crux of this is an organization claiming to be a "peer reviewed" journal, using its 501c3 status as some kind of mantle of educational authority, while they're getting industry money (and I'm betting more than a few pesatas) to promote faulty, flawed science, which they publicly defended long after it was clear their "science" - in the form of Guidelines - was causing serious injury and even death.

Oh, and Dustin's banning had nothing to do with disagreement. It had to with how he did it to someone supposedly "in the family." We all disagree at times - LOUDLY - even possibly a little too heatedly, but ultimately, we treat each other with respect because we actually do respect (and love) each other. Dustin's disagreement was well past a line. He opens it with insulting everyone's intelligence (but revealing his own), though I don't know if you got the movie quote reference to "Billy Madison." It gets worse after that. Regardless, you can only call someone a#@^oles in Coach's living room for so long before he shows you the door.

Last edited by Dale F. Saran : 02-28-2014 at 10:57 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 03:36 AM   #114
Jayne Whittingham
Banned Jayne Whittingham is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ABERGELE  Clwyd
Posts: 30
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

I have no axe to grind here but I think the banning of individuals who disagree with the opinions of the OP reflects badly on the forum.

For instance, I have read Jeff's posts lots over the last year & they are usually very helpful. Having been a member of all sorts of fora, you get to recognise a troll & disagreeing is not trolling, particularly when I thought part of Crossfit's ethos was to be libertarian.

If you want to sort out trolls, look at the sexist rubbish in the comments on your Facebook page under most photos there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 08:10 AM   #115
Cam Peavy
Member Cam Peavy is offline
 
Cam Peavy's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Auburn  AL
Posts: 161
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayne Whittingham View Post
I have no axe to grind here but I think the banning of individuals who disagree with the opinions of the OP reflects badly on the forum.

For instance, I have read Jeff's posts lots over the last year & they are usually very helpful. Having been a member of all sorts of fora, you get to recognise a troll & disagreeing is not trolling, particularly when I thought part of Crossfit's ethos was to be libertarian.

If you want to sort out trolls, look at the sexist rubbish in the comments on your Facebook page under most photos there.
Spot on. Multiple members have been banned who in my eyes, offer an insane amount of help and knowledge to this forum. Wouldn't have viewed their posts as trolling; just with some emotion.
__________________
M/19/5'9"/182#
475 Deadlift, 415 Back Squat, 330 Front Squat
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 08:35 AM   #116
Greg Light
Member Greg Light is offline
 
Greg Light's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham  MI
Posts: 2,933
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

I'd like a copy of the book please if still available


on the list - Lynne
__________________
My Workout Log
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 01:59 PM   #117
William J Mallon
Member William J Mallon is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northport  NY
Posts: 52
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

May I have a book???







Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Light View Post
I'd like a copy of the book please if still available


on the list - Lynne
__________________
The Peoples GALLON
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 02:00 PM   #118
William J Mallon
Member William J Mallon is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northport  NY
Posts: 52
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by William J Mallon View Post
May I have a book???

My apologies LynnE I see I'm already on the list...thank you!
__________________
The Peoples GALLON
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 06:00 AM   #119
Coach
Founding Father Coach is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2003
 
Posts: 391
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

William,

We've generally found it impossible to act on things ahead of our awareness of them - that's the straightforward answer. The greatest difficulty in empirical/evidenced based methodology is the challenges inherent in not relying on clairvoyance or other extrasensory data.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 08:58 AM   #120
Darryl Shaw
Member Darryl Shaw is offline
 
Darryl Shaw's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manchester  England
Posts: 1,925
Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by William J Mallon View Post
Also, I am not doubting the veracity of the claims you are and your colleagues are making. Before making judgment, I would like to read the source myself...
I posted links to some of the BMJ articles here and you can read the 1996 ACSM Position Stand, Exercise and Fluid Replacement here. You can read the 2007 ACSM Position Stand here.

*All links wfs*
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CHAMP/ACSM Guidelines for ECPs J. Thomas Boss Health and Medical Issues 0 05-04-2011 06:54 AM
ACSM Certification Bill Gibson Community 0 12-16-2010 10:21 AM
More Education: NSCA, ACSM, ISSA? David Hughes Starting 16 08-26-2009 06:41 AM
Anyone taken the ACSM - HFS certification test? Evan Hobbs Fitness 5 04-07-2009 06:45 PM
Some tips for equipment construction from a Home Depot associate Neal Winkler Equipment 8 12-27-2005 04:08 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.