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Old 02-22-2014, 08:32 PM   #41
Jason Donaldson
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Would love a copy of Dr Noakes book thanks Lynne and HQ.

My take, having coached numerous endurance athletes from half marathons to the Leadville 100. Gatorade, Powerade and the like are responsible for perpetuating the myth that you need to drink copious amounts of these substances to get through an event. They are not interested in health and fitness, only $$'s. Organisations such as the ACSM and over here, Australian Sports Medicine, really need to be distancing themselves from these businesses if they want to be taken seriously.

Keep your fueling sources separate. Drink water if necessary. Add electrolytes such as Salt Stix as required, eg anything over 90 mins duration.
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Old 02-23-2014, 03:03 PM   #42
Alden Hingle
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne Pitts View Post
To "sweeten the pot" CrossFit has 500 copies of Noakes' book available to give to interested parties; reply in this thread if you would like one. We'll grab your email from the admin side, so you don't need to post your email publicly, and our team will contact you for the rest of your information.
Requests so far - will keep this updated, so hit me if I miss you.

Joshua J Grenell
Chris Cooper
Christopher Morris
Dakota Base
Andy Shirley
Russel K Olofson
Lynne - I would like a copy of the book. Thank you!
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:56 PM   #43
Russell Greene
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Dakota,

Greg did not assert that ACSM/Gatorade are still promoting deadly hyperhydration. You can stop arguing with us about that.

You are correct that ACSM/Gatorade admitted that their previous recommendations were wrong. This does not absolve the ACSM/Gatorade of the deaths and injuries their recommendations caused. Time is no defense. It is certainly no solace for the families of the fallen.

Corporately-funded research is not a problem if the researchers do good, honest science. That was not the case here.

It was commonly believed in 1996 that hyperhydration was healthy and ergogenic. This does not mean that solid evidence supported the belief. You said yourself that simple experimentation with hydration levels shows that the ACSM/Gatorade's previous drinking recommendations do not work. If this was easily accessible to you, a recreational athlete, what took Gatorade/ACSM so long to realize it? Surely, they didn't lack funding. If, as you've noticed, their previous recommendations fail to promote short-term performance, let alone long-term health, what evidence did they have that the recommendations work? Please, send me links.

The best case scenario for the ACSM/Gatorade is that they made billions promoting overhydration, and happened to miss the evidence that heat energy is of inconsequential risk for marathon runners, that the fastest distance runners usually were substantially dehydrated, that their hydration recommendations resulted in dangerously low blood sodium levels, etc. etc.

It was either negligence or fraud. I'm leaning towards the latter.

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Originally Posted by Dakota Base View Post
In the same form of "Coach's" response thread, you've retorted with insulting my intelligence and capacity for understanding.

While deaths from faulty data are tragic, I don't think the format in which you're fighting this "war" is productive, or ethical. Coach's arguement here is passing off that the ACSM/Gatorade are STILL promoting hyperhydration, which just isn't true.

I don't care who does the research, and have no personal interest in Gatorade, Crossfit, Coach, yourself, the ACSM, or any other dog in this fight. What I DO, however, find insulting to the intelligence of these readers, is that you'll come in and propose that the ACSM is guilty of ignoring evidence, when Matt Thomas produced evidence that the ACSM published information A YEAR PRIOR TO DR. NOAKES publication of "Waterlogged" that retracted and updated its previous stance. Comparing the "best information at hand" that a research group published 30yrs ago to "the best information at hand" today, and seeing a discrepancy like this suggests to me that they've made an effort to correct a past mistake.

Sure, maybe I'm not aware of other injustices that the ACSM has made to lie to the public, but this is not one of them. However, you are lying by implying that they ARE intentionally misleading the public into over-drinking.

I don't care which side wins, as long as the true science reaches the people that need it. But for your arguement aimed at taking down Gatorade and dethroning the ACSM, find a new arguement, because the battle of over-hydration recommendations is lost.



There may be (debatably ARE) other things that might cause me to villify the ACSM/Gatorade, but publishing "best information at hand", then retracting it and updating it when new "best information at hand" becomes available, No, I'm not going to hold that agaisnt them.

As I mentioned before, I recognize that products generate revenue, and research costs money, so by default, research will ALWAYS be funded by corporations like Gatorade, that have vested interests in the outcome of testing. If it's not Gatorade, then it'll be one of their competitors. I can say with confidence that it won't be a private, non-profitting organization.
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:12 PM   #44
Jeff Enge
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

So, are you suggesting that CrossFit is going to sue on behalf of the people Gatorade and the ACSM have possibly harmed? Or try to start a Gatorade boycott? Because otherwise I don't see the point.
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:13 PM   #45
Matt Thomas
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

So again, what is it youre planning to do about these past evils?
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:39 PM   #46
Christopher E Bloom
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Lynne,
I would definitely be interested in a copy of the book.

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:56 PM   #47
Jesse Phillips
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

I would appreciate a copy of the book, if still available. Thanks,
-Jesse
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:13 PM   #48
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Allen Jones View Post
Despite what many think, intravenous fluids are inferior to oral fluids in terms if hydration...by a lot. Not knocking what you said (although there could be flaws due to the fact that IVs already don't work that well), just wanted to point that out to some who might think IV is better.
Doc,

That's different than I was taught (at EMT school, TCCC, and by 18D corpsmen). Where did you get that gouge? HM A school? Was that before or after the Take Motrin, Drink water, Change your socks class?

The way I learned it was:
IV

rectal

drink.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:28 PM   #49
Russell Greene
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

I'd like to share this story (W/f safe) of Cynthia Lucero, who followed the 1996 Gatorade/ACSM recommendation to drink "as much as tolerable"

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2002/Fl...14d4d97c0448a3

"Friends said Lucero drank large amounts of Gatorade and looked well for most of the April 16 race. She later began to falter, then collapsed after telling a friend that she felt dehydrated and rubber-legged. She died later at a hospital."
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:36 PM   #50
Barry Stockbrugger
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Lynne, would love a copy of "Waterlogged".

I have followed Dr. Noakes battle on this issue in many places for some time. He always provides the backing for his statements. As for the ACSM, they may have come clean on this issue as the evidence piled up, but they continue to make authoritative claims with weak if any science (i.e. "Extreme Conditioning Programs").

Build an argument before making claims. Not make claims then build an argument.
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