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Old 12-07-2007, 01:16 AM   #41
Mirza Besic
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Er, well I don't really think his routine will work either.

He seems to have a fairly high work capacity already.. well if his routine making skills are any merit to his conditioning level so that's why I would suggest something like the 5/2 or 3/1 schedule for mainly heavy lifting + rings. If I was designing one it would go M,W,F heavy lifting with Tu,Th as fairly intense but short rings work with possibly some HIIT. +food, of course.
I really am confused. I've been trying to get some information from many different sources and most bodyguilding sources would say for hypertrophy that a rep range of 8-12 would be ideal for somone with my composition trying to gain muscle. Also that a routine with rep ranges of around six wouldn't be ideal for me since because of my body it's hard enough gaining size already and spliting strenght/hypertrophy would just stall my gains. What do you think?

I've looked over the routine and made some additions, please critique.

Thanks!

Day1 (oly / heavy upper)

Clean 5x8-12 (first set with bar only warmup, second set is weight acclamation and last 3 sets are heavy sets)

Jerk 5x8-12 (first set with bar only warmup, second set is weight acclamation and last 3 sets are heavy sets)

Snatch 5x8-12 (first set with bar only warmup, second set is weight acclamation and last 3 sets are heavy sets)

Bench press 4x8-12 (these 3 pushing exercises below I can do just one and alternate one each week, would that balance the workout more?)
Weighted Dips 4x10-12
Dumbbell Maltese Fly 4x 12-15

Dragon Flags 4x 4-6 (do these every time because I love them!)

Day2 (oly / heavy lower)

OHS 3x8-12 warmup for heavy squat
Squat 3x8-12
Dead lift 3x8-12 (posterior 1)
Sumo DL High Pull 3x8-12 (should I keep this?)
Plyo. SS / Calve Raises 4x8-12


Day3 (rings)

60s Front Lever Hold (posterior 3)
Weighted Pull ups 4x8-12 (posterior 2)
Muscle Up 3x1-2? (posterior 4)
L-Seat Hold 60s
V-Touches
Jackknife PU 3x8-12
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:24 AM   #42
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Hypertrophy is kind of relative, especially if you're liffting frequently. Volume lifting does generally give hypertrophy -- well, more along the lines of sarco hypertrophy (if you believe sarco exists). On the other hand, working with lower rep ranges intensively especially with a frequent routine will reduce your strength deficit at the same time as building myofib hypertrophy. Which is good (because you want to be able to do strength moves).

I was actually recently arguing about this on another forum which may give you a great insight into what I'm talking about in terms of the above. Starts about mid-page and then spills over onto the next page. Heck, I think everyone should read this discussion. (I'm 'braindx' btw). If you don't want to read mainly I think it's problematic to aim specifically at hypertrophy if your ending goals are strength, especially if diet is good in which you will gain muscle weight regardless if it's low rep range or high rep range lifting. wfs:

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/wfor...=763&start=420

Besides the rep ranges, this is much better. Volume on the lower is a bit high, volume on the upper is a bit low this time around though.

I'm going to be out all day though and won't be home until late, but I'll basically construct something for you along with a good set of rings progressions to work through.

Last edited by Steven Low : 12-07-2007 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:42 AM   #43
Mirza Besic
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Hypertrophy is kind of relative, especially if you're liffting frequently. Volume lifting does generally give hypertrophy -- well, more along the lines of sarco hypertrophy (if you believe sarco exists). On the other hand, working with lower rep ranges intensively especially with a frequent routine will reduce your strength deficit at the same time as building myofib hypertrophy. Which is good (because you want to be able to do strength moves).

I was actually recently arguing about this on another forum which may give you a great insight into what I'm talking about in terms of the above. Starts about mid-page and then spills over onto the next page. Heck, I think everyone should read this discussion. (I'm 'braindx' btw). If you don't want to read mainly I think it's problematic to aim specifically at hypertrophy if your ending goals are strength, especially if diet is good in which you will gain muscle weight regardless if it's low rep range or high rep range lifting. wfs:

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/wfor...=763&start=420

Besides the rep ranges, this is much better. Volume on the lower is a bit high, volume on the upper is a bit low this time around though.

I'm going to be out all day though and won't be home until late, but I'll basically construct something for you along with a good set of rings progressions to work through.
This is what I kind of came up with thinking about what you've said. I'd love to see what you've created and how it compares to what I have. I'm having trouble incorporating the ring progressions with my strenght/mass workout.

3days on 1 or 2 days off


Olympic Lifts (2 warmup / 5 heavy)
Clean Variation 7x8-5
Jerk Variation 7x8-5
Snatch Variation 7x8-5
Weighted Ring Dips 7x8-5
ALTERNATE DAYS /w
Bench Press 7x-8-5

Power Lifts (2 warmup / 5 heavy)
Squat 7x8-5
Dead lift 7x8-5
Weighted Ring Chin Ups 7x8-5
Plyo. Shoulder Shrugs / Calve Raises 7x8-5

Rings (2 warmup / 5 heavy)
Muscle Up (varied reps/sets)
Iron Cross 7x8-3
Front Lever 60s hold
Plank progression exercise?
Crescent Pushups

What do you think? I'm having trouble coming up with a good effective way to combine mass / ring work to work towards lever/ planch/ cross. Any ideas?
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:40 AM   #44
Oliver Gould
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

From USA Gymnastics Online:

"Muscle hypertrophy training must therefore be very judiciously used in gymnastics training. As hard as it is to loose a pound of fat through correct diet and exercise, a pound of excess muscle is comparatively impossible to loose and still maintain fitness. Muscles that are not absolutely essential for gymnastics should not be hypertrophied. The important muscles for gymnastics need to be hypertrophied, but only within strict limits.

Not only will exaggerated muscle hypertrophy training ruin the gymnast's power-to-weight ratio or relative strength, muscle hypertrophy training may also make the gymnast slower."- (wfs)

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/public...-training.html

Define your goals dude. If you want to be really big, that's one thing. Building gymnastic strength is something else. Gaining 35 pounds of muscle is very likely to hurt you a lot more than it helps you when it comes to bodyweight moves, especially because the strength training and eating components of gaining large amounts of mass don't line up with gymnastic strength very well.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:52 AM   #45
Jake Oleander
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

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Originally Posted by Oliver Gould View Post
great article.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:56 PM   #46
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Again, it's not particularly hard. I would prefer a 5 on 2 off schedule because I think it's easier to scheudle weeks that way.. but anything that's 5/2 can really be modifed to 3/1 or so. Basically I'm going to use a 5/2 template so whatever.

Also, if you have not read this before I would suggest reading it (wfs):
http://www.bodyweighttraining.org/fo...opic.php?t=794

Here's what I suggest, and I will be following it with a rather long justification mainly because you deserve one cause I've been critiquing without providing any real substance. Bear with me:

Mon:
Snatch: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
Squat: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
Iron cross isometrics: 6x5s (30s total)
RINGS planche progression holds: sets up to 30s total
bent over rows: 2x6 + warmups
jerks: 2x6 + warmups

Tue:
Iron Cross pullouts(1 - see below for description): 5x3 + warmups
rings inverted hang slow eccentric to hang(2): 4-5x10s each
planche progression pushups(3): 5x3
rings pseudo planche pushups(4): 5x3
Sprints: 3x100m

Wed:
Snatch: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
Clean: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
Iron cross isometrics: 6x5s (30s total)
Parallettes planche progression holds: sets up to 30s total
weighted rings pullups: 2x6 + warmups
weighted rings dips: 2x6 + warmups

Thur:
Iron Cross pullouts: 5x3 + warmups
rings inverted hang slow eccentric to hang: 4-5x10s each
planche progression pushups: 5x3
rings pseudo planche pushups: 5x3
Sprints: 3x100m

Fri:
Clean: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
Squat: 3x5 up to 5x5 + warmups
DL: 1x5,1x3,1x1 or 1x5,1x4,1x3 + warmups
Iron cross isometrics: 6x5s
Floor planche progression holds: sets up to 30s total
front lever progression pullups(5): 2x6
Handstand pushups: 2x6 (weighted, if neccesary or on rings)


(1) Cross pullouts variations. See my article in PMenu on the Iron Cross and different variations you can use (wfs):

http://www.performancemenu.com/short...ty&shortyID=32

(2) rings inverted hang slow eccentric to hang -- Start from an inverted hang. Slowly start lowering down to a front lever position and pass through it slowly and keep lowering slowly down to a hang position. If you cannot complete 10s with a straight body then do them like you would do the front lever progressions. So for example, I am really tired from the cross work then I will do a straddle inverted hang lowering through straddle front lever to straddle hang. Same applies for adv. tuck and tuck is the lowest progression on the scale which I am sure you can at least do this. If you you're starting to fail in the middle of the sets then

(3) Use whatever progression you're on like tuck planche pushups, adv. tuck planche pushups, straddle planche pushups, etc. If you have to scale down in the middle of a set. Good for is ABSOLUTELY key here. If you slack on form and let your torso sag then you are only doing yourself a disservice. If you have no clue what I'm talking about then read this by Coach Sommer on planche and front lever (wfs):

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

(4) Rings pseudo planche pushups:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1...ppuspl8.th.jpg

Make sure to keep your hands at your waist the WHOLE time. Don't let them slide up to your chest as you are pushing down. Makes the exercise significantly harder.

(5) Use whatever front lever progression pullups. From the above article on the planche and front lever by Coach Sommer.


Essentially, the best way to structure this or rather should I say the best way to make it easier to manage volume is have your heavy lifts working on alternating days. Thus, our M,W,F are mainly going to be somewhat of a full body routine days along the lines of Starting Strength. This leaves our Tu,Th open to develop SPECIFICALLY to our goals. Although M,W,F are more heavy lifting type days, exercises for the upper body can and most likely WILL be modified in such a way that they overlap with our goals. For example, weighted pullups and one arm chin work tends to help out with the strength in the lats needed for a cross.

Barbell bench press is not really useful to any of the bodyweight exercises and therefore will be dropped (unless you want specific work with this, heh) as dips and overhead pressing/HSPUs are vastly more useful to develop the pushing isometrics (planche, maltese, inverted cross). Furthermore, with a fair amount of olympic lifting not a lot of specific DL work is needed to bring up the numbers. Thus, I would suggest basically chopping it down to one day a week namely the last day before the rest days which would be Friday. Perhaps use this time to work up maybe 1-3 RM to help stimulate

As far as lower body is concerned, I believe that 2 exercises per the M,W,F routine is enough especially if you insist on going relatively higher volume like you said above. I would honestly argue that working a 5x3 up to an 8x3 is better (although you may not have time for excessive amounts of sets), but 5 reps is solid. 5x5 for each may be a bit much, but in this case I'd generally just to say try it since as I said before it seems like you have a good work capacity. I would start with 3x5 and then move up to 4x5 and then 5x5 if necessary. Of course, REDUCE the volume or rather reduce the sets if you start to feel like crap a lot during the weeks.

Since you're going to be continuously working your upper body throughout the week as I assume your goals are more upper body based, you're going to need much lower volume and see how it works out because you're susceptible to overuse injuries as well as significant overreaching. Generally I would say 1-2 movements per kinetic chain (push, pull) per day. It's fairly easy to tack these on to the base build that we already established with our lower/full body exercises above. Indeed, since Tu/Th are pretty much all going to be upper body (save maybe a sprint or two I'd like you to add because it gives good hormonal release), we will make this your heavy upper body day while the M,W,F are going to be your lighter upper body days. Heavier means more directed towards strength, obviously, so we will use 3 RM on those days. On M,W,F we have the option to use pretty much anything from about 5-8 reps.. so I'm just picking an arbitrary number of about 6. Feel free to change that up if you want, but I'm keeping the sets pretty low because of the intensive Tu/Th that you will have consecutive after these days.

Now, the key to developing ISOMETRICS is a combination of full range of motion work plus isometrics. I am biased towards gaining strength so I generally do no isometrics. However, since your goal is doing holds I'll definitely add them to your routine. These will be in place of one of the pulling exercises and pushing exercises respectively. From what I noticed by training and obtaining an iron cross, front lever work is barely needed at all but I'll include at least one exercise you'll find particularly useful. Developing the planche through various exercises to hit the muscles is good. Similarly, developing planche holds on different things are good as well. For example, on rings, parallettes and floor. Thus, I am going to put you through one day a week of isometrics on each. Rings is significantly hard to do it on so you might have to go down a progression or two maybe even back to tuck planche or frog stand. You'll get used to it with more rings work though. In so far as the other M,W,F exercises are concerned besides the isometrics and lower, I feel it's good to get a good variation of exercises because they each hit muscles a bit different (much like the rings, parallettes, floor work with the planche) and you will develop strength through different ranges of motion.

If you notice, we are trying to keep ALL of the upper body exercises similar in terms of pushing and pulling to avoid any anterior to posterior dominance. Such dominance can often lead to imbalances which can lead to failure to break through plateaus as well as often pain and having to take relatively long breaks from training.

Anyway, I started designing the program while writing the justification but then it became almost all program and I had to write this afterwards. Hope I didn't miss anything.

P.S. If you didn't know already rest AT LEAST 3 minutes between sets. No less. I like 5 minutes.. and you can more or less take up to about 7 minutes or so. Just to clear that up. I have lots of friends who want me to help them gain strength and then start doing circuits with the exercises I give them or only rest a minute. They're mainly going to start building endurance/conditioning instead. I roll my eyes at them and yell at them.. and some of them refuse to listen. Oh well, not my problem.

P.P.S. I hope you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep a night and your diet is top notch otherwise you're gonna burn yourself out real quick even with this thing I wrote to be a little more friendly than your previous efforts.

P.P.P.S. After looking over it again I think the volume on the upper body is extremely high. Again, if you starting burning out reduce the amount of sets of the 5x3 work down to 4x3 or 3x3.

Last edited by Steven Low : 12-07-2007 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 12-08-2007, 04:00 AM   #47
Mirza Besic
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Thanks Steven, that was very well written out I appreciate it. As far as cross pullouts / cross isometrics are concerned the difference is that the isometrics are a hold at the bottom while the pull outs have a smooth up/down movement correct? I saw coach sommers referr to a 1-3-1 tempo when doing the cross so kind of confused as to why he's doing reps of 3 second holds at the bottom, wouldn't that be combining the pullouts with isometrics? What are your thoughts on that?

Also, I think i'll try the 3 sets with 2 warmup sets for the M W F days to start out with. I did the other workout the past week and I haven't done anything except feed, work and sleep. I took a break for the past 3 days because I have been just SOOOOOOOOO tired to the point where I nap in between my sleep daily.

Also, the workout is very centrized around obtaining strenght for the gymnastic moves. Can I expect to also gain some mass if combined with a overload diet? I'm not too worried about gaining fat since loosing it hasn't ever been a problem for me.

Also, (yes the third also, yes its ALSO poor grammar) the low rep sets for the gymnastic days I'm wondering how to increase the resistance for the pseudo pushups for 3 sets. I guess the only solution would be a weight vest because if I lean forward to almost my gravity center I can still do more than 3 reps if my feet are supported on something. So what do you think, weighted vest?

Same for the HSPU's... i can do WAY more than 6... but don't have a weighted vest, any ideas?
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Old 12-08-2007, 05:20 AM   #48
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

1. Isos with the concentric and eccentric tends to blunt both movements IMO. If you're gonna move in a full ROM then do it with explosiveness (well, as fast as you can pull out of a cross position, lol) with the muscles for that session.This will try to help prioritize your fast twitch fibers which are stronger than your slower twitch while isometrics will tend to work both out overall giving a slight bias towards type II which are the stronger ones.

2. Mass, yes. Not even sure why you would ask that, heh. As long as you keep the intensity high most of the excess cals should go on as muscle.

3. Pseudos you lean more. You can add a vest I guess. Well, the main reason I don't really like pseudos too much is because it's not really a measurable exercise, but their efficacy is really good especially when on rings with just leaning more and more with the feet elevated. MAKE SURE TO KEEP YOUR BODY HOLLOW. Can't stress good form enough. If you don't it will destroy the effectiveness of the exercise by probably 3-4x.

Good form not only goes for pseudos but for pretty much all planche progressions. If you allow yourself to arch you're just going to make yourself work longer even if you're leaning more because your body is not stimulating the right positions. As for the cross and other gymnastics progressions it's also critical to keep good form because bad habits generally are hard to get rid of (and most moves relate to each other well).

4. HSPUs: Go with an overhead press instead or do them on rings.

Last edited by Steven Low : 12-08-2007 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 12-08-2007, 10:04 AM   #49
Patrick Donnelly
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Re: Mirza
Subj: Weight Vest
http://www.mirweightedvest.com/ (Work/Family Safe.)

These vests have a good quality and cost. The only issues I have are:
- It shifts during burpees.
- It may sag during push-ups, depending on how you load the weight. If this is a problem for you, try wrapping a belt (the kind you wear on your pants) around your upper chest.

Other than that, it's great.
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Old 12-10-2007, 11:44 PM   #50
Mirza Besic
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

I did day 1 and day 2 the past three days with today being the day I had to take off. I was just too beat to have an effective workout today. I think I'll keep the workout to 2 days on 1 day off 2 days on 1 day off untill I don't feel so destroyed the next days. It's really the iron cross that messed me up because I have been neglecting it and now that I started up again it took a toll on my elbows and arms.

I think in a few weeks I'll be able to fly through a 5 day workout without resting a day but I'll just listen to my body.
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