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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-05-2007, 04:39 PM   #31
Nicolas Kizzee
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

I have been wondering the same thing on how to gain some wieght while doing crossfit. This might be sidetracking from the main tread but what is a good solid weight for a guy that is 6'4"? atm im about 175#...
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:42 PM   #32
Derek Weaver
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Nicolas, a good solid weight is where YOU feel good and solid.

6'4" and 175 lbs. does seem a bit on the light side, but you should pay attention to performance and how you feel.

Get a strong grasp on how much you need to eat each day just to maintain your weight. Then, find out how much you need to gain weight (remember to factor in activity in both of these calculations). Slowly begin to add in the calories and keep an eye on performance. Don't worry too much about a number on a scale. If you'r epaying attention to numbers then it should be times and poundages.
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:56 PM   #33
John Daniel
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

I have put on 20lbs of muscle "by accident" while on crossfit over the past 3 years. I eat a basically healthy zone-ish diet and have alway been lean with a fast metabolism. My deadlift has gove from 160 to 340, my Fran is below 7, I can actually get through Diane. I would imagine if I actually eat carefully, it would have come quickly.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:53 PM   #34
Nick Cummings
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Nicholas, I'm 6'3" and consider myself 10-20lbs underweight at 190. Your results may vary.
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Old 12-06-2007, 01:27 AM   #35
Mirza Besic
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Nisetich View Post
You have to think about what you really want -a planche or a ton of mass? You CAN eventually have both, I suppose, but you can't get both at once. If you want to gain weight, the formula is pretty simple: eat lots of food, and lift very heavy weights. Take epic amounts of rest, but keep eating even when you don't exercise.

I have always been a pretty strong guy, just genetically. But I realized a few years ago that I needed to get big and lift big if I wanted to keep up with everybody else in my sport (I play rugby). This is what I did:

Monday: Bench press, 8x4
Incline press w/DB, 3xr6
Hang clean, 5x5
DB row, 3x6
Tuesday: Back Squat, 8-6-6-4
Stiff leg deadlift (light), 2x10
Wed: Rest
Thursday: Repeat Mon.
Friday: repeat Tues.
Weekend off

I drank at least a quart of whole milk a day (usually more), and made sure to eat 4500-5000 calories of whatever I wanted. Peanut butter and honey sandwiches were my favorite snack, and I ate tons of beef and potatoes, dark green vegetables, eggs, and dairy as well. My results were excellent -I went from 162 lbs. to 197 lbs. in roughly 12 months (I also grew an inch taller, from 5'8" to 5'9", but that had nothing to do with my workout). The numbers, as far as strength (all weights in pounds):

Back Squat: from 225 to 315
Bench Press: from 185 to 275
Clean: from 110x5 to 177x5 (never did 1RM)
Deadlift: from 225 to 345 (and I never worked on it!)

It works. I trained balls out and was sore all the time, but I got huge. Of course, since starting CF those strength numbers have stayed the same or improved slightly, and my pullups and dips have shot through the ceiling, along with sprint times and overall conditioning. I am down to about 178 lbs. and still strong as I was. I don't see why you couldn't hold off on gymnastics, bulk up, and then come back to it. Just watch that you don't add mass that will hurt your gymnastics, like getting your legs really huge. That would make more sense to me than trying to gain mass on bodyweight exercises. Good luck.
Right now I'm looking at this 4 day split:

Day1 (oly / heavy upper)

Clean 5x8-12
Jerk 5x8-12
Snatch 5x8-12
Bench press 4x8-12
Weighted Dips 4x10-12
Dumbbell Maltese Fly 4x 12-15
Dragon Flags 4x 4-6

Day2 (oly / heavy lower)

OHS 3x8-12
Squat 3x8-12
Dead lift 3x8-12
Sumo DL High Pull 3x8-12
Plyo. SS / Calve Raises 4x8-12
Weighted Pull ups 4x8-12

Day3 (rings)

60s Lever Hold
Iron Cross 4x3-4
Muscle Up 3x1-2?
Crescent PU 3x8-12
Ring Fly 3x8-12
Archer PU 3x8-12
Jackknife PU 3x8-12

Day4 (parallel bars)
60s HS Hold
60s Planch Hold
60s L-Seat
HSPU 4x 8-12
Planch PU 4x8-12
Pseudo Planch PU 4x8-12

I like keeping my reps around 10 for hypertrophy, I believe that my body might be more responsive to this rather than a rep range thats focused around 6 or so reps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Bradbury View Post
I used to think gaining weight would make me feel better. I've since felt that if I focus on strength not size, the size would probably come anyways. I mean bigger isn't always better, some amazing feats of strength have been documented by men who were 130-150lbs. Plus who wants to be the guy who can't lift well for his weight? If you can deadlift 400lbs at a bodyweight of 150lbs, that's much more impressive then someone who can deadlift 400lbs at a body weight of 200lbs.
I'm also not saying don't eat a lot, but if I was you, I'd change my mental approach. I would think 'I need to eat a lot of quality food to fuel my muscles for strength gains.' Instead of thinking that 'I need to eat a lot to get bigger.' There's the even more important issue of, will you be happy when the scale says 190? Or will you want 195? Maybe 200? I Love the Crossfit approach of performance is king, everything else is a correlate. I would say that includes bodyweight.

That's my .02 anyways.

-Shane
Shane,

I agree with you in this aspect. I'm looking at this as a long term project and ultimately I want to finish at a weight of about 180ish ripped. It's just that gaining the mass to build upon is the first step; I've been going about it all wrong. I used to wan't to be the small guy at 150 and be supper strong. Now I want to be the 180 pund guys who's super strong as well but not so heavy that I'm going too far into diminishing returns.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Brown View Post
Pragmatically, I agree with everyone saying first make sure you really want to be bigger, not just stronger.

Then I'd do either of the SS's- Starting Strength or Super Squats, eat, and sleep. The issue here is you are actually trying to change how your metabolism works. 500 calories a day isn't going to do that. I literally doubled my caloric intake to gain 30+ pounds in two years. Then I had to do a lot of work to get to a maintenance level, and a level where I could just cruise at 185.

Simple, HEAVY exercise is the key to this. To me the perfect exercises ended up being 20 rep squats, alternated with 5x5, 5x5 on deads, cleans & push presses 3x3, shrugs 3x5 and chins and dips 3x8, add five pounds anytime I hit 8 in the fist two sets. Ran a few miles a few times a week. It also takes a sick addiction to slow weight progression.

Craig
I'm taking in close to 4000 calories per day, probably close to 5000 on days I work out. It's not all 100% clean but its mostly fruits, veggies, good carbs and protein and also good fats. Probably 85% good, 15% bad. I'm just being honest, sometimes I just feel like a damn cookie.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Arden Cogar Jr. View Post
Wow, a lot of insight has gone into what everyone has written. Personally, I could write all day on this subject.

To gain 35lbs at your current size is quite possible. But as many have said, you'll need to eliminate the met con and cardio. Moreover, it's not about going heavy all the time and eating like a pig. It's about waving your training loads with an eye toward stimulus and hyptertrophy and manipulating your carbohydrates very carefully (I assume you want to remain as lean as you can?).

Personally, given your back ground, I think 35 pounds over a three or four year time frame with steady hard training with cycles of mass (no met con) and regular xfit would be perfect. But you have to be patient. You need to treat this long term. You will need to commit to life certainties with your diet (eating clean and not crap). You will also need to map out your training very systematically to alternate heavy and light and change it up very frequently to avoid adaptation.

Unless you're a genetic freak who was once already 190lbs and you're completely detrained, gaining this weight in less than the time period I've described will be very very difficult. Not impossible. But very difficult. Some people have the genetics for it. I, for one, do not. I was born broad and I've stayed broad (and could stand to lose a good 10 to 20 pounds of good ole middle age torso expansion).

Good luck and let us know what you decide and how you're progressing.

All the best,
Arden
Thanks for the tips, I agree and I do look at this as a very long term project. In fact I look at my body as a never ending project; I'm just taking it in a different direction so re-structuring is needed. Granted I'll be doing several years of mass / lean cycles to get to the weight I want before I start doing an almost CF / Gymnastics exclusive workout from then on. Unless I change my mind by then, which I most likely will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yong Tang View Post
just personal thoughts, but I don't believe rushing to gain any sort of mass in the amounts you are hoping for is good for you. I believe in balance, and apply it to many things I do in life. You are young, have so many years ahead of you, and you want to be that big right now. Besides, you can't expect to gain those 35 lbs of mass in a short time without gaining a lot of fat. 35 lbs of pure muscle is just too much to ask for. Unless you are talking in the long range like Arden said, you probably shouldn't shoot for it.
I'm like you and I have fast metabolism which makes it insanely hard to gain weight in a short amount of time, which is why I have turned my attention to long term goals. I just think that what you are asking for is short sighted, that's all.

Short term has nothing to do with this; I understand the idea that my body can't produce this type of muscle super fast. One thing I do know is that I can drop fat as fast as I gain it almost. Only thing I need to do to cut down is go on a paleo diet for a month or two and bam I'm back to six pack central. (don't burst my bubble )
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Old 12-06-2007, 01:44 AM   #36
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Shrug, if that's how you want to do it go for it. I mean, I would recommend a different approach totally as I already suggested, but if this is what you've set your mind to do I might as well help you out some.

Here's my critique:

1. Insane amount of volume though, you'll probably hit an overreach state pretty quickly. To be honestly, I would rather you work in the 3-6 range for the good combination of strength and hypertrophy. 10 tends to develop too much endurance for my tastes, and it will take much longer to build the necessary strength for the moves you're looking at.

2. Too anterior heavy. Say hello to nice rounded shoulders and imbalances that can actually hinder training significantly. A good rule of thumb is to have as many pulling exercises as pushing to keep it about even. Front lever and planche are MEANT to be complimentary per Coach Sommer's article and thus you should train them together since it's a good opposite push-pull (and yes I know yoiu have front lever but the planche stuff proportional to front lever work is like 6:1). If you already have front lever start weighting your torso and do it as well as front lever pullups.

3. Get rid of the wasteful exercises. For example:

Quote:
Day3 (rings)

60s Lever Hold
Iron Cross 4x3-4
Muscle Up 3x1-2?
Crescent PU 3x8-12
Ring Fly 3x8-12
Archer PU 3x8-12
Jackknife PU 3x8-12
I don't exactly understand why you are doing MUs, crescent pushups, rings flys and archer pushups... and somewhat jackknives PUs when they're all pretty much similar. While it goes back to my too anterior heavy and too much volume you're honestly just hitting the same muscles over and over and making it pretty much a conditioning workout rather than a strength. A good rule of thumb is 25-50 reps per kinetic chain per day with your kinetic chains being your posterior, pushing and pulling. If you are going to use those then pick a couple of them and do extremely intense work with them instead of doing 124234^2342 exercises which won't really help you gain strength or mass at all.

Heck, I had good strength and muscle gains by JUST doing 9-15 reps of one arm pullup work per day for 5 days a week. If the intensity is high, volume does not need to necessarily be high and can actually be detrimental. Plus with high intensity you get better strength gains.

Day 1 makes me cringe.. maybe even more.

4. And as you know by now.. +food
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:20 PM   #37
Craig Brown
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Dude. I am dead serious when I say that is jus a ridiculous amount of volume. Way too many exercises, way to many reps. I know it's sounds weird from where you are coming from, but you need to look at something like Starting Strength, Super Squats, one of John Christy's basic workouts, or Strongest Shall Survive by Bill Starr. You are looking for serious progression on a FEW heavy exercises. A few. Total. I do best, and I see the best results on three exercises a day, three times a week. I swear it works. Promise.

Craig
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Old 12-06-2007, 01:34 PM   #38
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Craig:

I think high frequency is definitely better than 3x per week. the trick is to manage volume correctly. CF does too, ironically, and it's a black box program (which means it will use anything so long as it works). Therefore high frequency training is better than lower frequency training. And if you disagree just look at all of the olympic athletes that train pretty much 5-6 days a week.. which is pretty much everyone from every sport.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:30 PM   #39
Craig Brown
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Steven- Agreed, and I personally work out five days a week. But if I was trying to put on 35# of muscle in the next couple years, three days is pretty solid.

For me, at a younger age, (and much younger than I actually started) retrospectively I wish I had just eaten well and did crossfit, using any of the SS/Crossfit hybrids. So I am not suggesting what I think is best, overall.

Also (and sorry I am writing about you like you aren't here!) my best guess is that Mirza is not going to be able to adjust to a much lower volume, even though I think it would be the faster road to what he says he wants: 35#, pretty quickly. Given that routine, I just don't see it. So I'd come up with a basic workout, that (and I don't know anything about gymnastics, someone else can address that) would look sort of like:
a) squat, dip, chin (this would be the heavy heavy day, weighted on the chins and dips)(others would bench rather than dip)
b)clean and press, clean, deadlift (this would be the pretty heavy day)
c)sport specific day (skill day)(o lifts? Rings? Whatever you dig)

Looking at the four day split, Mirza is going to (no matter what I suggest) add additional exercises. This is cool, as long as he is seeing progress (adding weight or reps) to every exercise on a & b days. If he is not making progress, the additionals get junked.

Keep in mind I started lifting in my thirties, and was skinny and weak. But variations of the above and over 4000 calories a day did wonders for me. Will it get you fit, in the 'what is fitness' sense? No. Will it get you bigger and stronger? Yes.

craig
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:42 PM   #40
Steven Low
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Re: I'm 155lbs, I want to be 190lbs; read inside.

Er, well I don't really think his routine will work either.

He seems to have a fairly high work capacity already.. well if his routine making skills are any merit to his conditioning level so that's why I would suggest something like the 5/2 or 3/1 schedule for mainly heavy lifting + rings. If I was designing one it would go M,W,F heavy lifting with Tu,Th as fairly intense but short rings work with possibly some HIIT. +food, of course.
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