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Old 03-21-2014, 12:33 PM   #11
Dana Rice
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

Eric is correct. Listen to his advice.

Trying to combine SS with crossfit metcons will reduce the effectiveness of the LP to the point you are just wasting your time.

If you are at a novice strength level (which you are), and have tons of room for LP, and getting stronger is one of your primary goals, then focus on that for 6-8 months.

Be aware, SS is a very specific program. It is intended to help novices add weight to the bar as efficently and quickly as possible. if you are not prepared to gain weight, only incoporate specific lifts (with specific mechanics), it will also reduce its effectiveness. If you haven't already, buy the book. Its a good read whether you run the program or not.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:36 PM   #12
Drew Cloutier
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

well looking at your numbers it looks like you used to do bro workouts (aka pecs and arms) because your squat and deadlift should not be so near your bench.

I definitely do NOT suggest sticking to just Crossfit, will you get stronger yes but extremely SLOWLY. So why not do a dedicated strength program like GSLP, CFFB, WS4SB, a good PL program, something that will help you build that strength base, while either maintaining overall fitness/cardio or letting it go a bit to then go back when you take a break from gaining strength and bring that fitness/cardio back up.

As someone else pointed out SS the way its made WORKS, so don't go adding to it. If you want to do more training days then find a program that works and programs more days.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:33 PM   #13
Milton Brisson
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

I dont know a whole lot about the GSLP, but I have heard that its a great program.

I would recomend Crossfit Football to anyone, though! Start with the ameture SWoDs, it will probably take a year or so to progress to the collegiate level. CFFB is a good start if you want to consider CF as a sport later on, as you will get weekly exposure to the power clean, and power snatching comes up a fair bit as well.

When I was doing it, I stuck to the strength work as closely as possible, sometimes adjusting the DWoDs to fit my schedule or other things happening in life.....

Definitely follow a strength priogram! One that has you squatting at least twice a week.

Good luck!
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Old 03-22-2014, 06:59 AM   #14
Wisam Saeed
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
A month and a half of SS isn't really enough to form an opinion about its intensity, especially seeing how you only got up to a 5RM squat and deadlift of 220lbs. I don't mean that in a rude way--but it's just a simple fact that moving that kind of weight doesn't impart a whole lot of systemic stress that necessitates plenty of recovery. I can guarantee if you'd carried the program out to where you were squatting and pulling 2x bodyweight for sets of 5 you would not be saying it was "too much rest."

As I said before, check out CFFB or GSLP if you want to train 4-5 days per week with a good mix of linear progress on the big lifts and CF-style conditioning on 2-3 of those training days.

Thanks alot for your help, I will check these programs you mentioned. But bare with me if I ask alot, I read and search alot and I have so many question.

Rich Froning always mentioned that he trains 2-5 times a day of which 1-2 times of heavy lifting and 3-4 metcons, 2 on the same day and program, how is it viable for him?
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:45 AM   #15
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

And Usain Bolt probably trains 4-6 hours most days....that doesn't mean it's viable for someone who's not a genetic freak, or for someone who has work/school/family obligations that would prevent him from focusing solely on training, eating, sleeping, recovering, getting massages, etc.

Basing your training on Rich Froning's methods when you've got a 5RM deadlift of 220lbs is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:16 AM   #16
Wisam Saeed
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
And Usain Bolt probably trains 4-6 hours most days....that doesn't mean it's viable for someone who's not a genetic freak, or for someone who has work/school/family obligations that would prevent him from focusing solely on training, eating, sleeping, recovering, getting massages, etc.

Basing your training on Rich Froning's methods when you've got a 5RM deadlift of 220lbs is a recipe for disaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton Brisson View Post
I dont know a whole lot about the GSLP, but I have heard that its a great program.

I would recomend Crossfit Football to anyone, though! Start with the ameture SWoDs, it will probably take a year or so to progress to the collegiate level. CFFB is a good start if you want to consider CF as a sport later on, as you will get weekly exposure to the power clean, and power snatching comes up a fair bit as well.

When I was doing it, I stuck to the strength work as closely as possible, sometimes adjusting the DWoDs to fit my schedule or other things happening in life.....

Definitely follow a strength priogram! One that has you squatting at least twice a week.

Good luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Cloutier View Post
well looking at your numbers it looks like you used to do bro workouts (aka pecs and arms) because your squat and deadlift should not be so near your bench.

I definitely do NOT suggest sticking to just Crossfit, will you get stronger yes but extremely SLOWLY. So why not do a dedicated strength program like GSLP, CFFB, WS4SB, a good PL program, something that will help you build that strength base, while either maintaining overall fitness/cardio or letting it go a bit to then go back when you take a break from gaining strength and bring that fitness/cardio back up.

As someone else pointed out SS the way its made WORKS, so don't go adding to it. If you want to do more training days then find a program that works and programs more days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana Rice View Post
Eric is correct. Listen to his advice.

Trying to combine SS with crossfit metcons will reduce the effectiveness of the LP to the point you are just wasting your time.

If you are at a novice strength level (which you are), and have tons of room for LP, and getting stronger is one of your primary goals, then focus on that for 6-8 months.

Be aware, SS is a very specific program. It is intended to help novices add weight to the bar as efficently and quickly as possible. if you are not prepared to gain weight, only incoporate specific lifts (with specific mechanics), it will also reduce its effectiveness. If you haven't already, buy the book. Its a good read whether you run the program or not.
I looked over GSLP and CFFB, I think I really like CFFB, combines strength and conditioning everyday, even if its slower than going on SS alone for strength or CF alone for conditioning but at least it keeps me working around 5 days a week and I have a mix of workouts. I think its the way to go for me.

One more question guys if I may, how do I know if its ok or if its time to start doing more than 1 WOD a day? Is it ok for me to try? Like I can do a CF WOD in the morning and the CFFB WOD in the evening, how does that sound?
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:51 AM   #17
Andrew G Parker
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

I don't have the rich experience and knowledge of these other guys, but as someone relatively new, I understand the desire to do better both with both the strength and conditioning. You want to gain strength and now you also want to do two metcons a day. Some of us, especially when we start seeing results (or just because we enjoy the workout), get inpatient and driven at the expense of health. If you don't allow recovery time (as well as sufficient sleep and good diet), you will sabotage a lot of your efforts. Working harder is not always smarter. More is not always better. Just because you don't feel you need rest, doesn't mean you don't. I think over training and insufficient eating is what wipes most of us newbies out--until we learn better.

I'm glad for a coach that refused to let me go overboard and is somewhat religious about recovery.
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Old 03-22-2014, 02:40 PM   #18
Robert Fabsik
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

Once you are squatting 400lbs and can run 3 miles under 18 minutes, you may be ready for 2 a days. You are getting the cart before the horse. Don't neglect training efficiency. What is the minimal amount of work you need to do to get your goals? Once you go past that minimum, the returns start to drop and you run the risk of burning out.

You look to Froning for your training model, but you should ask the question as to what was Froning doing when he was at your level. What built him up?

To be ready for high volume you have to build it up over time. If you start out with tons of volume without the right base you'll spin your wheels.

Looking at your current stats, if your long term goal is to be good at CF. You need to bolster your strength first. As many have suggested do a good linear progression for 6-8 months then transition to a combined strength and conditioning program like CFFB or GSLP.

If you fear missing the metcons then doing CFFB is a great choice even though it may slow your linear progress. It is a well balance program overall.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:04 PM   #19
Wisam Saeed
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fabsik View Post
Once you are squatting 400lbs and can run 3 miles under 18 minutes, you may be ready for 2 a days. You are getting the cart before the horse. Don't neglect training efficiency. What is the minimal amount of work you need to do to get your goals? Once you go past that minimum, the returns start to drop and you run the risk of burning out.

You look to Froning for your training model, but you should ask the question as to what was Froning doing when he was at your level. What built him up?

To be ready for high volume you have to build it up over time. If you start out with tons of volume without the right base you'll spin your wheels.

Looking at your current stats, if your long term goal is to be good at CF. You need to bolster your strength first. As many have suggested do a good linear progression for 6-8 months then transition to a combined strength and conditioning program like CFFB or GSLP.

If you fear missing the metcons then doing CFFB is a great choice even though it may slow your linear progress. It is a well balance program overall.
I think I will just go with CFFB, that way i'll satisfy myself by doing something I enjoy (metcon and working 5-6 days a week) and progressing with my strength which is required for me to perform at CF.

I cant just go with SS or any other strength program, they all state I should only work 3 days a week, and I tried SS for a month and a half. I cant just work 3 days a week, its just too few for a training for me.

Not only that it just keeps me away a lot from CF, and the idea of me getting away from CF for 6-8 months as a pre-requisite to do better at CF doesnt make sense to me. Thats probably one of the reasons why CFFB was invented.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:31 PM   #20
Robert Fabsik
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Re: Strength Program or CF or Both?

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Originally Posted by Wisam Saeed View Post
I cant just go with SS or any other strength program, they all state I should only work 3 days a week, and I tried SS for a month and a half. I cant just work 3 days a week, its just too few for a training for me.

Not only that it just keeps me away a lot from CF, and the idea of me getting away from CF for 6-8 months as a pre-requisite to do better at CF doesnt make sense to me. Thats probably one of the reasons why CFFB was invented.
Why do you need to work out 6 times a week? If you enjoy it fine. But if you are to argue you'll make better strength gains working out 6 times a week, you are way off base.

Staying away from CF for 6-8 months will let you get better strength that will make it easier to do WODs as RX'd. The only bad thing about being away from CF for so long is you'll be a little rusty on your skills. But it is easier to build skills with a good strength base than without.

Who's going to be able to do a muscle up better for the first time? Someone who can bench 1.5 times there body weight and chin with 100lbs on their waist or someone who has been practicing ring rows and ring dips?

Ideally, you need the strength and the skill. But strength takes time to build.
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